new bridgelux model? VESTA® 90CRI, 130lm/W

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Professor Xavier
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unkle_psycho wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:22 am
tazztone wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:01 pm
i just sorted the entire LED catalog from digikey by a new tab i calculated: "lumen per dollar".
Vestas reach a value of 660 lm/$, by far the highest, only beaten by a few COBs (Vero® SE 29 or Gen 7 V22).
other LED modules (rigid strips) are far off:
EB gen2 are 365 lm/$
Fseries gen3 285 lm/$
Yep... I counted about 3w per Euro, including drivers. Wish I could keep high plant counts, would love to do a comparison on the ROI of different setups, that cost the same... Would 200$ of Vestas beat 200$ of F-series? I would imagine that especially with larger plants having over 2x more strips would allow more efficient lighting strategies...
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tazztone
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Vesta is actually the name of an ancient goddess:
"She was was often personified by the fire of her temple. Entry to her temple was permitted only to her priestesses, the Vestals, who tended the sacred fire at the hearth in her temple."

now we are the Vestals tending the LED fires in our guarded grow temples. :D
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Hyakutak
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I'm still not really hyped by those Vesta strips... But maybe you'll correct my assumptions:

If you want to run them cold without heatsink @ 2700k w/ a 600w driver, you'll need 80 of them (approximation?)... compared to 20 f-series. I can easily buy 20x 3000k & 5x 5000k and have a varying spectrum...

80 * 10 = 800$
25 * 19 = 475$

If I check this graph:
Capture d’écran 2018-06-12 à 10.08.57.png
The problem of this Vesta strip is that the most used spectrum for end veg & flowering (between 2700 & 3000k?) isn't the medium spectrum of the strip with both led row at same current (3850k?). So you can probably not compare different strips with this lumens per dollar value because you can never use the Vesta strip completely without having a wrong spectrum.

If you want to have a 3000k spectrum, you can only use 55% of the light output. So you would have to divide by 2 your Vesta lumen per $ number.... This number only work if you use 100% of the strip most of the time. So we would have with bulk discount for 3000K:

VESTA: 363 lm/$
F-series: 415 lm/$

& I'm not taking into account that the 2700k diode is less efficient than the 5000k one.

This assumption can be wrong if a 3800k 90 CRI spectrum is equal or better than the 3000k 80 CRI. (It could even be a bit worst) But as always, not all strain /plant respond equally to the spectrum, etc. So it's probably not black & white..

The only things that bother me with the f-series, is that they are not making 2700K strips & 90 cri strips...

But one idea I just had is about having a lot of f-series strips for the core light output & using some vesta strip as complementary spectrum for the start of veg (5000k) & end of flowering (2700k)! Mixing f-series w/ vesta is maybe a good alternative for my project (and yours?)!
Last edited by Hyakutak on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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macthezazou wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:20 am

But one idea I just had is about having a lot of f-series strips for the core light output & using some vesta strip as complementary spectrum for the start of veg (5000k) & end of flowering (2700k)! Mixing f-series w/ vesta is maybe a good alternative for my project (and yours?)!
I had the same idea, but with the eb gen series 2. = D , see where I was quoted be the professor here. = D
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unkle_psycho
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I started with the idea of F-series with a 600w driver. Instead of building a 4x4 light, I built a 2x4 light from vestas, and aimed at making it as flexible as possible. Eventually I will build the other 2x4 light, and it might as well run with one larger driver, and be fixed at an optimal color temperature for flowering.

What made me decide on the vestas had a reactive component (digikey didn't have EB2s), and on F-series I always found myself compromising on build designs to maximize the bulk discount (so looking at larger numbers of shorter strips). Finally looking at the F-series always had me feeling I should design the system to reach very high lumen per watt levels, since they don't shine when comparing lumens per $.
But there was also a constructive element to my decision. While planning the light and ordering parts I was doing a pheno hunt. I didn't' grow inside for over 13y, and thats where it begins. In my pheno hunt I tested the specimens with a mercury vapor metal halide (from the 90's), and with 2 different HID's with different color temperature bulbs, and a sulfur plasma. Naturally node distance was not the only variable that the lights were causing, but as expected the effects were quite chaotic. Even within the same strain it was obvious that a perfect color temperature for veg varied for each specimen. Also the degree that spectrum affected strains varied a lot too. My initial conclusion is that if I was designing a commercial op (I'm certainly not), I would design each room around a specific clone. Since I have no idea on the strains the future has in mind for me, I opted for flexibility, and a lamp that allows me to adjust and learn from the strains I am working with.

So my vesta top light has 9 strips with 225w on 2700k, and 225w on 5000k. There are 3 drivers per color temperature, so in veg I can just light 3 strips @75w (or 150w) or 6 strips @ 150w (or 300w). If I'm growing stretchy strains I can veg with 5000k, and if I'm growing some slow indica I can veg at 2700k. I can even veg @ different color temperatures at the same time. The way I see it is i'm not optimizing money per watt, but my potential for learning. I have been thinking about building the other 2x4 light with 80cri so I would have the option to compare that too.

I read a bunch of comparisons between 80 and 90 cri, and for the moment it seems a little confusing. Some people got amazing results from the 90cri, some didn't. Some said it speeded flowering, others said they got more crop per days flowering with the slower 80cri. One area 90cri seems to rock at is in lower levels of light. Waiting to see comparisons for clones, sprouts and early veg.

Certainly if someone knows they don't need color temperatures over 2700k then Vestas loose a lot of appeal. Also in bigger builds the F-series bulk discounts start to become quite meaningful. Unfortunately by the time conclusive evidence and experience with mid level leds builds up, market offerings will have likely already changed. I think in a year all the products we discuss will have already changed :)

One last point that affected my decision was my plans of making an indoor vegetable garden for my mother. The adjustable spectrum will really be important there. I imagine within 2y my vestas will have found a permanent home growing salads, herbs, tomatoes and cucumbers for my parents. Also I can defiantly recycle them into home lighting.
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tazztone
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i am also not overhyped but i just wanted to make a joke as well for those who are on the vesta train.
macthezazou wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:20 am
you can never use the Vesta strip completely without having a wrong spectrum.
of course, if you are not happy with the combined CCT of the vestas (~3800K) they make not so much sense. but many consider 3500K the ideal spectrum for combined flowering and Veg. so close enough for me, (plus i have more far red).
macthezazou wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:20 am
I can easily buy 20x 3000k & 5x 5000k and have a varying spectrum...
25 * 19$ = 475$
not for that price mate. you used the bulk price for 100pcs of F564B. so you would have to spend a total of 3908 $ to get these prices.
macthezazou wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:20 am
If you want to run them cold without heatsink
you would need about the same amount of Vestas as F564B. 600W, each strip run at below 25% :
50*9.91$ = 496$ Vesta 560mm
50*23.4$ = 1119$ F564B (double row 560mm)
vesta vs F-series.png
vesta would however end up with 14-18% lower efficiency. so you would have to buy more vestas to match the amount of photons. if you would heat your growing space anyway then the additional heat is not a loss.
i think these strips make sense for first timers or small growers who don't buy 100pcs of strips but want a ton of light for little money. (90CRi also suits them better for general lighting. should you ever want to use them for this in the future)
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Hyakutak
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tazztone wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:54 am
you would need about the same amount of Vestas as F564B. 600W, each strip run at below 25% :
50*9.91$ = 496$ Vesta 560mm
50*23.4$ = 1119$ F564B (double row 560mm)
That's the things:

If I want 600 watts of 3000k running @ 25%. I can only use 55% of the output of the strip. So I would need 90 vesta strip compared to 50 .
And for me, the whole point of Vesta is the dynamic spectrum for low price. But the thing is, as you know, you need lower color temperature during flowering but higher PPFD. With VESTA, the more you approach a good flowering spectrum, the less your PPFD is high and the less you are using the full capacity of your strip...

Those strips would be incredible if the "medium" color temperature would be around 3000-3200k...

(I'm going to do big major order for f-series strips, that's why I get such discount, but I understand this isn't the case for everyone)
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tazztone
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macthezazou wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:53 am
If I want 600 watts of 3000k running @ 25%. I can only use 55% of the output of the strip.
yea as already pointed out it doesn't make sense if you don't want to use both CCT rows at the same time.
Vestas are like: buy a strip and get 1 Led row for free! if you chose not to use it to get a better CCT: your choice. i rather use both LED rows.
Last edited by tazztone on Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hyakutak
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Ah okay, I didn't understand it that way!

Sorry, I don't want to contradict you, I just wanted to go down the rabbit hole & confront my assumption to trully understand if I'm not missing anything with a full Vesta build...! :P
unkle_psycho
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I stared at this sentence for like a minute, before my brain got what was being said:

"you can never use the Vesta strip completely without having a wrong spectrum. "

My mind was wondering how anyone could find the right spectrum if it could not be adjusted :D But if assuming that the same color temperature is always right, then the statement is very true.

During my last veg I had a g13haze that grew 2cm nodes under the mercury vapor, and maybe 2.5cm nodes under plasma. Under HID it did best. I assumed it would perform best vegged with 1800k. Another pheno from the same seeds was giving maybe 15cm nodes under 1800k, and seemed quite manageable under 4500k plasma. Even for the first 3 weeks of flower I love the idea that half my grow space will have the ability to control stretch.

perhaps it wouldn't matter much if I didn't do mixed runs, or like sativas :)
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