Or_Gro’s tiny clone-off

[TEKNIK]

Current light info:
025B03B5-AAC2-4508-A6CE-5DA08640FA80.jpeg


1x96elite plus 1x60w incandescent.

The high fr and ir bands are from the 60w incandescent light in tent for heat.

Got to love the IR present with a simple 60W bulb. @Randomblame do you remember me saying to add an incandescent to increase IR and we were joking about it?
It's clearly a good solution to solve a few problems Leds have at times.

I dreamt up a system to use incandescent in a linear format using 24V truck stop lights to even out the spread across the canopy. It wouldn't be needed all the time but plants really seem to love being blasted with heat at least for a few hours a day.
My suspicion is that this would cause a change in nutrient requirements also.

[Or_Gro]

Current light info:
025B03B5-AAC2-4508-A6CE-5DA08640FA80.jpeg


1x96elite plus 1x60w incandescent.

The high fr and ir bands are from the 60w incandescent light in tent for heat.

Got to love the IR present with a simple 60W bulb. @Randomblame do you remember me saying to add an incandescent to increase IR and we were joking about it?
It's clearly a good solution to solve a few problems Leds have at times.

I dreamt up a system to use incandescent in a linear format using 24V truck stop lights to even out the spread across the canopy. It wouldn't be needed all the time but plants really seem to love being blasted with heat at least for a few hours a day.
My suspicion is that this would cause a change in nutrient requirements also.

Here’s the 96 alone:

Here’s the incandescent alone:

Makes me also wonder how the appropriate mix of incandescents and white leds would do at mimicking Emerson effect....

[TEKNIK]

images.png (8.81 KiB) Viewed 1810 times

I believe it will not only help with Emerson but do a lot more if used correctly.
I think there is a direct correlation between IR and green light. Plants like to be heat stressed for some reason for short periods of time.
I think there is a difference is what sort of light provides that heat.
It all comes down to stomatal control. I spoke with Prawn regarding this a few weeks back and he also confirmed a few of my suspicions.

Combining incandescent with LEDs may have huge benefits if done correctly. I also do not think it's nessacery to increase overall power consumption when using them.

The way to test this would be to set up a good control system and with LED tunable boards, the linear incandescent lighting system I dreamt up would consist on 24V 10W festoon bulbs and a reflector being each one, around 12 pcs of festoon bulbs across a 4X4.
Although they would be 24V bulbs they would be run off a 12V transformer to drop them down to 5W per bulb. Using 24V bulbs run at half voltage increases the lifespan by about 4X.
I believe that for 4 hours mid way during the light cycle Green and the incandescents should be tuned on, about 100W total, 60W incandescent and 40W green.
Not sure if the green is nessacery or not but I guess it's all worth a try. I have looked for studies on this but haven't found anything.

Need someone like you to do this Or_Gro because you would do it right.

[Or_Gro]

images.png

I believe it will not only help with Emerson but do a lot more if used correctly.
I think there is a direct correlation between IR and green light. Plants like to be heat stressed for some reason for short periods of time.
I think there is a difference is what sort of light provides that heat.
It all comes down to stomatal control. I spoke with Prawn regarding this a few weeks back and he also confirmed a few of my suspicions.

Combining incandescent with LEDs may have huge benefits if done correctly. I also do not think it's nessacery to increase overall power consumption when using them.

The way to test this would be to set up a good control system and with LED tunable boards, the linear incandescent lighting system I dreamt up would consist on 24V 10W festoon bulbs and a reflector being each one, around 12 pcs of festoon bulbs across a 4X4.
Although they would be 24V bulbs they would be run off a 12V transformer to drop them down to 5W per bulb. Using 24V bulbs run at half voltage increases the lifespan by about 4X.
I believe that for 4 hours mid way during the light cycle Green and the incandescents should be tuned on, about 100W total, 60W incandescent and 40W green.
Not sure if the green is nessacery or not but I guess it's all worth a try. I have looked for studies on this but haven't found anything.

Need someone like you to do this Or_Gro because you would do it right.

What’s the anticipated benefit? You mention stomatal control, what specifically would that do for my plants?

[TEKNIK]

I believe it will give a significant increase in yields once things are worked out as to how much and how long it needs to be applied for.
I have seen too many massive results from outdoor grows to ignore how they yield and I believe that the same thing can be done indoors with some more experiments. I think the key is in heat response from IR but not 730nm real IR like 2000nm

[Randomblame]

Awesome, tagging works now!
If now the like button moves to the bottom of the corresponding post we don't need to scroll back every time we want to like that posting. Pretty annoying, lol!

So and here are my 2ct's about additional heat and incandescent bulbs...

In the early plant stages it can really be neccessary to add some more heat cuz the light used is not intense enough to heat up the area around the plants. But I don't thing its neccessary to use an incandescent bulb to create that heat.
We need it to increase the speed of the metabolism, right, so we can also use a heat mat or a ceramic heater. What ever is more efficient should work the same..
Many greenhouse growers use for instance gas burners in winter to heat up their greenhouses and add some extra CO2.

Using incandecent bulbs would only heat up the canopy a few inches deep. A heat mat would heat up the whole plant and would probably have more effect on the plants as well.

In the colder rooms one could also use some side light to pump more light and heat in the lower regions. It helps a lot!
A few vertical EBgen3 strips in 5k/CRI90 for instance... (lots of blue and green to keep stomata open but also some red and far-red)
A "light dome" is probably much closer to natural light as any other light coming only from above. The surrounding light and heat is the reason why plants outdoor produce compact buds from top down to the bottom. The SunCloak is a commercial grow system based on the light dome princip and its a very efficient system and the plants grown inside such a "bird cage" look pretty close to natural grown plants. I hate to say that but HW2 (sorry, but I have no problems with him) has a few so called SunCloak blades made from several vertical LED strips and there is an old rui thread where he has used it. Plants grown inside that light dome really looked much closer to plants grown outdoors. Today he's using the vertical blades in his whole groom ot add some more sidelight where its neccessary.

There are only 2-3°C difference in leaf temps between sun(or HPS/CMH)-light and LED and we can increase ambient temps to get them. Using incandescent bulbs every day would also have more stretching effects even when used only a few hours. Depends on the amount of far-red..
For rooting cuts that's not a problem but if you add incandescent light to seedlings or young plants they probably don't stay nice and compact. Too much far-red is can also block germination in the worst case. Pure deep red promotes germination while pure far-red blocks it. So incandescent bulbs used from the beginning could have negative effects on the germination rate. Far-red should not be the dominant wavelength!

Increasing ambient temps is the better solution IMO and most of the time we can get that heat for free. We need only extra heat with lower light levels and when we increase ambient temps we only need to keep an eye on the VPD cuz with increased ambient temps we need more humidity.
In some rare situations is an incandescent bulb is maybe the easiest way to add some heat but trying to mimic the suns spectrum from 285-2000nm is generally not a good idea. The heat is what makes lights inefficient and we would need much more energy to mimic the whole sun spectrum.
For the plants it makes no difference if its ratiated or surrounding heat and there are enough other wavelengths like blue that can be used to keep the stomata open and last but not least surrounding heat has also an effect on stomata openings.

If you want to use radiated heat its more efficient to just use side lights. You get the heat where you need it and the extra light in the lower area significantly reduces larf. Lets say you already have ~1000μMol/s and its still too cold. To increase it further makes it only more difficult cuz you would need for instance extra CO². But if you add side lights instead the intensity at canopy level would stay almost the same but nevertheless the plant would get more light. And that method can also be used in the veg or germination area with less intensity. Strips which need no heat sinks are the easiest way to add some side light and extra heat where you want it and I can only recommend to try it. 2 ft EB strips are almost predestinated to use them as sidelights. Pretty sure my party cup plant would have yielded much lower without the used side lights.

At the end there is one question that comes to my mind..
Do we really need plants that big like grown outdoors?
Such plants need at least 3-4 month of vegetative growth to reach such dimensions and yield 0,5-1kg. In the same time I could do two runs on the same surface area using cuttings and only 1 or 2 weeks of veg and at the end I get probably more bud doing two runs instead a long run with only one huge plant. And I'm 100% sure you can't grow plants that big indoors without using additional sidelights otherwise the lower half would only produce a lot of larf.

[Capt. Saicin]

Could this be due to an increase in leaf temp?
Leafs cool down due to transpiration/evaporation, so if the ambient temp is around 25-27°C (77-80°F) actual leaf temperature will be slightly below while optimal temperature for photosynthesis processes is around 25°C afaik.
We measured this at Uni with tiny tiny metal temperature probes in a greenhouse and had significant differences between ambient and leaf temp.

So the IR radiation might warm up the leaf directly and therefore speed up photosynthesis a bit? Extended over the growth period even small enhancements can accumulate, i guess?
Also: If stomata are open for a longer period there is probably more water/solution throughput. Depending on what the limiting facor is this could also increase productivity?

[TEKNIK]

I know you are an awesome grower, but we are missing something, I could be terribly wrong with what I want to experiment with but that is why it is an experiment.
60W of incandescent light isn't all that much in a 4X4 when led lights are using 400W and it would not be activated all the time.
You can see how little an effect a 60W is having with a single QB96, I think 60W over a 4X4 isn't all that much for an experiment.
I think plants want to be stressed by light for a few hours a day same as they would in nature at high noon.
I am very likely wrong with my assumption but I still feel that is is worth an experiment.
I have seen monster grows that took 3 months total and only had 4 hours of direct sunlight a day, it was in the shade for most of it. I can't think of what else could have caused this apart from something occurring under the stress it got in that short period of time.
Just like with UV causing stress to get a positive response there maybe a similar positive to the other side of the spectrum.

[Frank Cannon]

It'd be nice to see who likes what without clinking on the buttons too pls.

Who uses 400w of LED in a 4 x 4, most certainly not the witchdOctOR of Krakatoa.

How would you add say a 1-200w of incandescent, I could do with increasing heat for sure, under canopy could be fun!

[Or_Gro]

It'd be nice to see who likes what without clinking on the buttons too pls.

Who uses 400w of LED in a 4 x 4, most certainly not the witchdOctOR of Krakatoa.

How would you add say a 1-200w of incandescent, I could do with increasing heat for sure, under canopy could be fun!

I’m also getting my witch doctORate at the university of St. Helens....