Or_Gro and the epic smackdown

[Or_Gro]

From my limited understanding of co2 intake and maximum micromouls it is in direct relation to the spectrum.
Plants that receive sunlight in a green house can take more micromouls before co2 is required.
Under artificial lights I am pretty sure 1000 micromouls is maximum before co2 is required to go further.
There is probably a high chance that artificial lights have a more focused beneficial spectrum so although sunlight is able to hit the plants with more it isn't doing anything that is beneficial, the plants may just regulate themselves differently under the broader spectrum.
More research is required but I pretty certain there is a way to increase productivity without co2 and just with a different spectrum.

The chart rb showed clearly shows higher lst,, upto a point, increases productivity.

My own measurements show 3-5 degree F diffs between lst and airtemp, when air temps are mid- to upper-70s, under all three types of white leds.

So, this approach certainly has its benefits for white leds...

[TEKNIK]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... iQAVsl6MPG

I need to find the other article about sunlight and co2. But this corresponds with how you are growing at the moment.

[Marine2143]

Aloha & here is what Fluence has to say about CO2. "Carbon Dioxide Enrichment: How Much CO2 Should You Give Your Plants?
Carbon dioxide (CO2) enrichment in your controlled environ- ment will substantially improve the yield of your high PPFD crops. All plants have a light saturation point where the maximum rate of photosynthesis is reached at a specific light intensity. Maximum photosynthesis at ambient atmospheric CO2 levels (~400 ppm) is normally limited by the amount of CO2 available, not the intensity of light (Figure 5). Generally, optimum levels of CO2 will be two to four times the normal atmospheric levels (800 – 1,400 ppm CO2) when growing under high PPFD conditions. We recommend supplement- ing ≥ 800 ppm CO2 into your controlled environment when you are providing your plants with ≥ 500 μmol/m2/s. As you increase your light intensity, you can slowly increase your CO2 levels as plants ac- climate to increased PPFD. Refer to Table 4 for recommended CO2 concentrations during establishment, vegetative, and reproductive growth of cannabis, tomatoes, cucumbers, and peppers."

[Randomblame]

Aloha & here is what Fluence has to say about CO2. "Carbon Dioxide Enrichment: How Much CO2 Should You Give Your Plants?
Carbon dioxide (CO2) enrichment in your controlled environ- ment will substantially improve the yield of your high PPFD crops. All plants have a light saturation point where the maximum rate of photosynthesis is reached at a specific light intensity. Maximum photosynthesis at ambient atmospheric CO2 levels (~400 ppm) is normally limited by the amount of CO2 available, not the intensity of light (Figure 5). Generally, optimum levels of CO2 will be two to four times the normal atmospheric levels (800 – 1,400 ppm CO2) when growing under high PPFD conditions. We recommend supplement- ing ≥ 800 ppm CO2 into your controlled environment when you are providing your plants with ≥ 500 μmol/m2/s. As you increase your light intensity, you can slowly increase your CO2 levels as plants ac- climate to increased PPFD. Refer to Table 4 for recommended CO2 concentrations during establishment, vegetative, and reproductive growth of cannabis, tomatoes, cucumbers, and peppers."

Like to use screenshots to explain. Here you see effects of additional CO² at 800 and 1400ppfd.

[Randomblame]

From my limited understanding of co2 intake and maximum micromouls it is in direct relation to the spectrum.
Plants that receive sunlight in a green house can take more micromouls before co2 is required.
Under artificial lights I am pretty sure 1000 micromouls is maximum before co2 is required to go further.
There is probably a high chance that artificial lights have a more focused beneficial spectrum so although sunlight is able to hit the plants with more it isn't doing anything that is beneficial, the plants may just regulate themselves differently under the broader spectrum.
More research is required but I pretty certain there is a way to increase productivity without co2 and just with a different spectrum.

The chart rb showed clearly shows higher lst,, upto a point, increases productivity.

My own measurements show 3-5 degree F diffs between lst and airtemp, when air temps are mid- to upper-70s, under all three types of white leds.

So, this approach certainly has its benefits for white leds...

3-5° less leaf temps is a bit much IMO. LST should actually stabilize 1-2° lower than ambient. At the end of the day my leaf temps are often as high as my ambient temps or within 0,5°. Only the 1st half of the day LST stay slightly lower but -2° they reach within the 1st hour.
Do you use one of the atomizer donuts in this room? Was there condensing water? This could have an effect on the LST and keep the leaves cooler.
To avoid condensation inside my grow area's I increase the humidity in my lung room to 70-80% to get 60-70% inside my grow area. I also add the CO2 there... Doing it this way I can keep my windows closed over the day and open them only at night. When the windows and doors are closed the humidity increase automaticly by the amount of water evaporated by the plants. That's more than enough humidity.. Sometimes I have even to use my dehumidifier to keep it at a certain level.
My lung room has 18m² and my grow area is only 0,84m² and it takes only around an hour to get the RH where I want it.
Only in early veg when the plants are small I have to add humidification but as soon as the area is almost filled with green thats no longer neccessary.

Is there a way to use the lung room this way and keep the level higher in the whole room? You have 6x as much grow area, the plants should easily create more vapor than neccessary.
The only down side is that water is condensing at the colder windows(dew point) and I have to direct a fan on the windows to avaid it. But its only a small 120mm PC fan, so not a big thing..
As long as the lung room dries one time the day you can avoid getting mold easily. When windows at "night" are open humidity goes down to 50-60% and till now I've not found any mold.
(knock-knock-knock)
It also saves a lot CO² and the Oxygene level also increase over the day when you keep the room closed/sealed.
Its maybe worth a try .. if its possible..

[Frank Cannon]

@or_gro and @randomblame

Currently paying back my wife for her hard work in the Windtunnels when I'm away as promised

[Or_Gro]

@or_gro and @randomblame

Currently paying back my wife for her hard work in the Windtunnels when I'm away as promised
20190707_142808.jpg

You bought her a beer?

[Randomblame]

From my limited understanding of co2 intake and maximum micromouls it is in direct relation to the spectrum.
Plants that receive sunlight in a green house can take more micromouls before co2 is required.
Under artificial lights I am pretty sure 1000 micromouls is maximum before co2 is required to go further.
There is probably a high chance that artificial lights have a more focused beneficial spectrum so although sunlight is able to hit the plants with more it isn't doing anything that is beneficial, the plants may just regulate themselves differently under the broader spectrum.
More research is required but I pretty certain there is a way to increase productivity without co2 and just with a different spectrum.

Sunlight is not only direct light a good part of it is diffuse. In greenhouses the pro's always use diffusing materials cuz diffuse light yields up to 12% higher compared to direct light. Diffuse light eliminates shadows and it travels much deeper inside the canopy. So the diffuse light is one of the factors why plants outdoor develope better. On cloudy days all the light is diffuse and as long as the temps stay high enough the photosynthetic rate stays almost the same.
Sunlight is also not constant, the intensity goes often up and down because of clouds.

Bad thing for us, we lose at least 6% of the light when using diffusers in front of our diodes. Even the best pmma materials have only 94% trasmission rate and as soon as we use a higher haze factor the transmission loss gets even higher.

Pretty sure you know fresnel lenses. Such fresnels could be used to focus the light on a certain surface area and get more diffuse light in the same time. Even if we lose 6% intensity the diffuse light could maybe compensate that. They would also improve the color mixing when different diodes are used and would reduce dazzling effects and help to get a more uniform spectrum.

The tomato plants in greenhouses are often +10m high and there is only 1m in between two rows of plants. Without diffusing cavity-plates the fruits on the bottom of the plants would not get enough light and they would yield much less.

Outdoors you always have diffuse light also when there are no clouds. The air is full of dust, vapor and other small particles and these also have diffusing effects.

Another reason why plants outdoor develope better is their root system at least when they are transplanted directly to the ground. The bigger the the root ball the bigger the plant. Always if you see 4-5m high monster plants with 5-6m perimeter they either have huge pots or are planted directly in the ground. Root temps also stay almost constant no matter if its day or night. The ground keeps the heat long enough so it swings only by 1 or 2° between night and day and that only on the grounds surface.

The wind outdoors also helps the light to travel deeper and the evaporation is much better distributed over the whole plant and not only focussed on the canopy like indoors.

The heat is also not only concentrated on the 1st few inches of the canopy. Outdoors the surrounding heat is almost the same from top of the plant down to the bottom.

All this things have effects and are different from indoor conditions. We can only try to keep a good balance between temps, humidity and intensity. Outdoor this happens almost automaticly and even under bad conditions the plant can adjust themself. If indoor only one of the 3 aspects change it immediately affects the photosynthetic rate.

IMO the best way to increase yield/m² is to go into the vertical and add a 2nd layer of plants and another light. With LED strips we need only 36"/1m of total heigth when we use cuttings and veg them less than a week. 8" high pots and strips mounted on U-profiles would still leave 30" free space for the plants in between. Enough for the most strains..
I've helped a friend to build two 350w strip lights for his 4x 4' tent(10pc 4ft EBgen2 strips + HLG-320H-20A). He has two stacked areas now, each with 36pc 1gal teku pots with coco and he regularly yields a pound or more from each light. Thats +1kg every 8-9 weeks out of a 4x 4' tent. Even outdoor plants can't do that in the same time..

[Randomblame]

@or_gro and @randomblame

Currently paying back my wife for her hard work in the Windtunnels when I'm away as promised
20190707_142808.jpg

Looks like in paradise, bro! I'm sure she loves you a tiny bit more now, lol!
Have a good time...

[Rocket Soul]

@or_gro and @randomblame

Currently paying back my wife for her hard work in the Windtunnels when I'm away as promised
20190707_142808.jpg

Bali? You lucky duckies. I think ive been there